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OWN YOUR BRAND SHOW with Victoria Odekomaya
Welcome to the OWN YOUR BRAND SHOW where you'll learn how to own and grow your brand and market your business. Every week I interview entrepreneurs and/or share branding, marketing and business tips to grow your influence, build a profitable business and make an impact.
Victoria Odekomaya is an award winning photographer, brand & marketing strategist with over a decade of experience. She is passionate about helping women fulfill their dreams and purpose effortlessly.
Click to be featured, advertise on the show or connect with Victoria: hello@thelimstudios.com
OWN YOUR BRAND SHOW with Victoria Odekomaya
Beyond the Paycheck: Choosing Purpose Over Familiarity | Epi 60
From Burnout to Burgundy Red: India Brown’s Bold Leap from Corporate to CEO
What happens when the corporate ladder you’re climbing no longer leads to fulfillment?
For India Brown—CEO of PMPHASE Consulting Firm—the answer came after 13 years in healthcare IT. Despite promotions, raises, and external validation, something vital was missing. “That’s the moment I chose fulfillment over familiarity,” she shares in this candid and inspiring conversation about redefining success through entrepreneurship.
But the leap wasn’t easy.
Armed with an MBA and deep expertise in project management, India still found herself unprepared for the realities of business ownership. Her first two years were financially devastating—what she describes as “burgundy red.” The cause? A costly gap in business acumen, especially in contract negotiation and cash flow management. “I was flying out weekly, paying expenses upfront, and waiting 45 days for reimbursement,” she recalls—an all-too-common scenario for professionals assuming that technical skills equal business success.
India’s turning point came through mentorship and mindset. She transitioned from working in the business to operating as its CEO—rebranding to PMPHASE, building operational systems, and learning to delegate with intention. Today, five years later, her company is thriving and expanding into new markets.
Most powerful of all? India’s commitment to lifting others as she rises.
Through her CEO mindset programs, board leadership with organizations like Pass the Torch, and grassroots community sponsorships, she equips emerging entrepreneurs with the tools she once lacked. Her message is clear: technical skills are important, but sustainable success demands strategic thinking, mentorship, and honest self-assessment.
🎯 Ready to step into true leadership?
Visit www.pmphase.com or email info@pmphase.com to learn more about India’s CEO Mindset Training and how she’s helping professionals become empowered, effective business leaders.
//ABOUT
Victoria Odekomaya is a Nigerian American and former drug research scientist turned brand and marketing expert. Through her Creative Agency, LiMStudios, she specializes in brand photography, video creation, and strategic marketing. Victoria's mission is to empower female entrepreneurs to be SEEN, KNOWN, and HEARD, enhancing their visual presence and attracting their ideal customers to build a BANKABLE PERSONAL BRAND. Victoria's scientific background has honed her analytical thinking, attention to detail, and problem-solving skills, which she integrates into her branding strategies. Her 23-year journey to U.S. citizenship reflects the perseverance female entrepreneurs need to overcome challenges in branding and marketing. This fuels her dedication to empower women to achieve their entrepreneurial dreams.
In 2022, Victoria launched the BOSS LADIES CAMPAIGN, giving participants a celebrity photoshoot experience to enhance their confidence and brand visibility. The campaign promotes these women through features in BOSS LADIES magazine, appearances on Victoria's 'OWN YOUR BRAND SHOW', and recognition at the BOSS LADIES GALA. The gala not only celebrates women but also raises funds for local non-profits, so far raising $19,000+ for Dove Recovery House for Women and PINK RIBBON CONNECTION.
For sponsorship/business inquiries, visit https://mtr.bio/limstudios or email hello@thelimstudios.com.
I am India Brown and I am the CEO of PMFace Consulting Firm. We are a project and enterprise change management firm. We solve problems that usually impact operations within the workforce development or impact organizations from doing their day-to-day business. I think it was just going through the process of each time there was a promotion or each time there was this opportunity for someone to give an accolade. It was based on their description of what success looked like for me, and so it never felt like I was excited or I'm ready to get to the next thing they want to offer. So at that time in my life I was just thinking there's got to be more.
Speaker 1:And I do agree, I think, if you're unhappy, I wasn't completely unhappy with my job. I was unhappy with the fact that I didn't find fulfillment in it anymore. I loved the people, I loved what I did. I just couldn't find a space where it really made me feel like, oh, this is amazing every day, and I think when you do something, you should love it. Yes, you really should. Yes, and I was not in love anymore in the beginning. I loved every part of it and you should love it. Yes, you really should. Yes, and I was not in love anymore. In the beginning I loved every part of it and you couldn't tell me anything. I thought I was this amazing mom, working mom and wife, and go to work and I mean, I worked 24 hours.
Speaker 2:I think you are amazing, oh, thank you Hello and welcome to another episode of the Own your Brand Show. I am your girl, victoria Odekomaya, and today I'm excited because, once again, we're bringing something inspiring and powerful to the table. Now, if you are building a successful corporate career and you feel like something is missing, you are not broken. You're just being called to hire. My guest today has done that. She left the comfort of corporate and she's doing the damn thing building up business. So, without much ado, let's get into it. How are you doing today, miss?
Speaker 1:India. I am good. Thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Okay. So I have to say, and I well, first of all, can you please introduce yourself? Because I'm excited, I was like we're going to jump right in, right, yes, Well, I am India Brown and I am the CEO of PMFace Consulting Firm.
Speaker 1:We are a project and enterprise change management firm that usually impact operational work operations within the workforce development or impact organizations from doing their day-to-day business. So we're there to solve problems.
Speaker 2:We fix it Absolutely, and you are also the board chair of Pass the Torch.
Speaker 1:Yes, I am the board chair of Pass the Torch. I've been a member of Pass the Torch for five years now. I have been mentoring for a while. I joined Pass the Torch so that I could actually get to a more structured mentoring space, and so then I became the board chair. I am in the first year of my two-year term, so I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1:I also sit on a couple of other organizations just to help support, because I believe in giving back. So I sit on the board for Sea Leaders Training Institute. That's an organization that's built around helping businesses understand their customer experience and what they should be doing to accommodate their customers' expectations. I also am the vice I'm sorry, not vice. I was the vice chair for National Black MBA. I am now just the director of entrepreneurship, so I kind of stepped down. Being the board chair for two organizations was enough, yes, so I stepped into the role to help support our entrepreneurs more. The National Black MBA is an organization that supports black businesses, black people working in corporate America. You don't have to have an MBA to be a part of the organization. It's just there to support and provide you the education that you need. So I'm a part of three boards. That's true.
Speaker 2:You are busy. But you know one thing that inspires me about you. I remember a while back, before we finally got connected, I always I used to like what do you call that? Like I'm stalking you on social media. I'm like who is this lady? She's just amazing. And I feel like you're always giving back I mean, you said it over here like all of the things that you spend your extra time doing. You know it's about giving back either on one board or the other, right? So you're very generous and I love that about you. But I want to start with a quote that you which, by the way, india, you were also featured in the recent edition of the Boss Ladies magazine which.
Speaker 2:I absolutely loved photographing you.
Speaker 1:And you did an amazing job. When I tell you, even my husband was like wow you're a great photographer.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. One thing that you said in the magazine during the process, you said I realized I could do this on my own Create a sense of accomplishment to make money for myself. That's the moment I chose fulfillment over familiarity. I think that is a powerful statement and this was what time in your journey? Powerful statements.
Speaker 1:And this was what time in your you know your journey I think it was just going through the process of each time there was a promotion or each time there was this opportunity for someone to give an accolade. It was based on their description of what success looked like for me, and so it never felt like I was, you know, excited or I'm ready to get to the next thing they want to offer. So at that time in my life I was just thinking there's got to be more. There's got to be more to what success looks and feels like. And I looked around and I saw some of the people that I worked with and they were consulting, and I saw some of the people that were there and had been at this office for years and it just seemed stale and I was like I have got to do something different. This cannot be my forever. So I said you know what? I'm just going to start making moves.
Speaker 1:And the first move was talk to my husband, let him know like this is not feeling good. I think I need to step out of this. But I got a plan. So with that you know, of course it was now I'm going to walk away from this job. So here are the things that you need to do in support of. But I have a plan. I think it's going to work great. I have great skills, I'm pretty smart, I can do this. And I said I just I can't see being there. This is not retirement for me, this company is not retirement. So I really needed to. I was in a space where I wanted to define what success meant for me. What did that look like? So I had to step out on faith and say I didn't know what success looked like, but I knew it was not there. It was not there.
Speaker 2:It was not there. I think that's so powerful what you said, because I don't think we as women, or even people as general, really think about what success means for us. Like do you feel like there was like any spiritual and I don't mean to be all spiritual here, but like was there anything on the inside, beyond just knowing that you didn't? You felt stuck, that just feel like okay, you've got to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like.
Speaker 2:I had learned also meditation.
Speaker 1:So I was really getting into meditation in that space because I think when you have a little quiet you hear all the things that need to be said that you can't hear when the noise is going on.
Speaker 1:So I think I struggled with feeling like you're so unappreciative of a position that anybody would love to have. You're getting paid great and your people are really appreciating the hard work that you're putting in. How do you not appreciate it? So I had to sit down and be quiet for a minute because it was. It was kind of like and I'm an analytical person, so every step has to be thought out, but then there are those that just can't. So in those moments where I was like I'm an analytical person, so every step has to be thought out, but then there are those that just can't. So in those moments where I was like I'm tired of thinking. So during the meditation, it was when I feel like you do get to hear God whisper to you. If you do this, you know it's do what means the most to you. Don't struggle over the decision. Make the decision, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:I felt like I wasn't walking alone in the space and so I felt like in those moments I had to be shown that stop thinking about it. I had to be shown you've got people who love you and support you. You're going to have the naysayers, but I also feel like I grew up in a family where you had to have tough skin. That's right, so that was a given. But yeah, spiritually, it was removing fear Like the only noise. The only voice I need to hear is the spirit in me that's saying do it. Yeah, the positive things, the positive things. Just imagine what you're going to get out of this if you do this.
Speaker 1:So clear the clutter. I would meditate at least once a week so I can clear the clutter. And when you clear the clutter, oh my gosh, it's amazing, because then all of the ideas of support, positive energy, you can do this All of those things come through. And again, being analytical, I was like in my mind you know I'm thinking okay, I hear you saying be positive. But how do you do that? What do I need to say to myself? And I will all of a sudden be around me and see, you know, you've got this. And it didn't matter where I was. It'd be like I'd be somewhere and I'd see a sign that would say you know, no matter what life has to offer, you know, taken by the horns you know just all kinds of little signs in the spaces, I was like got it, I'm doing it that is so good, wow.
Speaker 2:So then let's just walk through that journey. You've done the mind walk and then now you put in your resignation, like tell us how that went.
Speaker 1:You've done the mind walk and then now you put in your resignation, like, tell us how that went, oh gosh. So before I had to put in my resignation, I thought okay, india, you can't do anything without a plan. So what does this look like? I had to line up the people that I thought I wanted to work with. I had to really set up a structure to say to the vendors who were working with the company I worked with to say, hey, what if I was thinking about leaving? How would you feel about working with me, right? So when I got the yeses, I said, ok, all right, I didn't have a secured opportunity.
Speaker 1:When I decided to turn in my resignation, I told my husband I said I'm going to jump. This is it. I said I'm going to give them the two week notice and I said I don't know what's going to happen in the next two weeks, but I'm jumping this ship. He was like, okay, that's so brave. I have to give credit to my husband too, because he's never been the person that's not supported me. He always has. But I think he felt a fear. But he did not let me see the fear, because he knew if I felt like he was afraid, oh, I was not going to do it.
Speaker 2:I feel like my husband is like that too. He's like they have to be strong for us at that moment.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and they know how really traumatic this could be. Yes, and the fear and the challenges of thinking about you're going from a structured payroll insurance and benefits a day-to-day job, especially insurance.
Speaker 1:And benefits. Right, right, a day-to-day job that says you're 8 to 5, this is what you're doing. In two weeks you're going to get a check, that's right. All those things had to be going through his mind. We live in the house. We have three kids oh my gosh. And one of our kids actually was off at college. She was into her freshman year at IU, oh my goodness. The other kid was on his way out of high school. And we had a kid in middle school, oh my goodness. So all of these things we talked about like hey, I said I know I can do this, just I'm going to turn this letter in and then it's going to be online. I'm shaking right now.
Speaker 2:I'm just reliving that moment with you. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:So in the letter. You know I had spent 13 years with this company and so I actually wrote an individual letter to all the previous managers that I had, thanking them for the opportunities that they had given me. And I said you know, if there's anything I need or you need from me, please feel free to reach out to me. And so I turned the resignation into the HR team, because you have to go through HR and I knew her so immediately she's like I emailed it to her. She came to my little cubicle and she's like what is this? And I said it's time for me to go.
Speaker 1:She was like well, you just got promoted. It was a promotion like three months before that. And that was where I was starting to feel like this is not, this is me, it doesn't mean anything to me, I've got to make a change. She was like you just got promoted and a raise. I know they're confused. She was so confused and so she was like before I turned this to your manager, are you sure this is what you want to do? And I was like don't do that.
Speaker 1:Like don't put the second thought, the second guessing into my head and I said yeah. I said it's time. She was like well, what are you going to do? She said I know that people don't typically tell like where they're going. I said you know, I'm just going to step out on faith. I said I'm going to do my own thing. I said you know, I think I'm pretty good at what I do, being a project manager working in the healthcare space. I am good at this. Yes, you are, I'm going to do this. And she said okay. So when I hit send, she was like I'm pretty sure everyone's going to come talk to you, so do you want to sit here? Do you want to just go to the conference room?
Speaker 2:I'm a man.
Speaker 1:Let's just all get everybody together. So she had sinned and it sent to my direct manager, and then it sent to a supervisor that I was working with, because I worked with hospital facility clinics, so all of those leaders needed to be aware that I was no longer going to be supporting their clinics.
Speaker 1:So it went to everyone and, when I tell you, my phone went off 30,000 times. I mean, in like two hours it did not stop chiming. Oh, you were so in love and I felt that I did, I did. I felt that that makes it harder too right, it was so hard.
Speaker 1:And it almost made me feel like, well, maybe I'm not doing the right thing, maybe I'm not doing the right thing, but I knew it was the right thing it was. I love all of them and the feeling that they gave me from the love and the support of if you need anything to one person, even sent some referrals excuse me my way and was like you know, here's some groups that we've worked with in the past when we needed some support on the IT side. Call them and we'll tell them that you're coming. So, yeah, it was so much love Victoria.
Speaker 2:Like I just thought, wow, okay Did you feel like you should have done this a long time ago. I did, I actually did. I was like, why did I leave here?
Speaker 1:But you know, God has a plan and I knew that in that last promotion and I got a great raise and I was not happy. I knew in that moment that the plan was time. It was time to execute the plan it really was.
Speaker 1:Because no one should be dissatisfied with a promotion and a raise and 13 years and people were so great to me. I loved the people I worked with. They all loved me. I ran a great team. They were all amazing. I just thought, yeah, it's not them, it's me, it's not me. But some people stay. They'll stay in that situation and wish they would have left and then 30, 40 years in they're miserable and just disdained just so much. And I never would have wanted to get to that place, never.
Speaker 2:Because you know how they say that wanted to get to that place never. Because you know, I always say that when we get on that deathbed, like the very like, do you feel like you're gonna look back and say, like, you know, like, so I think that is so for anybody out there that is thinking we're not saying quit your job yeah, don't do that think about it.
Speaker 2:But, like, if you're unhappy, you know, like I said in the beginning, like maybe you're being called to something higher and now you have the opportunity to do it before it's too late.
Speaker 1:And I do agree, I think, if you're unhappy I wasn't completely unhappy with my job. I was unhappy with the fact that I didn't find fulfillment in it anymore.
Speaker 1:I loved the people, I loved what I did. I just couldn't find a space where it really made me feel like, oh, this is amazing every day, and I think when you do something, you should love it. You really should. And I was not in love anymore In the beginning. I loved every part of it and you couldn't tell me anything. I thought I was this amazing mom, working mom and wife and go to work, and I mean, I worked 24 hours. I think you are amazing. Oh, thank you?
Speaker 2:I think you are, yeah, but thinking about it like so, some of the work you probably did is still what you do now in your business, right? So it's not like you didn't like the job, Right exactly.
Speaker 1:You know. It's just like I wanted to do it for myself. Yes, I saw that. You know when you look at because I was exposed to analytics revenue for the business what we're generating when the hospital would purchase a new clinic. I had access to all of that information and I'm looking at these dollars like here, wow, right, like what?
Speaker 1:So this is what you all are doing and I, you know, I just thought to myself as again that last 30 days I was contemplating leaving and I'm thinking you are very good at this. Look at how much you are increasing their revenue, how much you're increasing their customer satisfaction. Look at all the positive things that you're doing for them. You could do this for yourself. You could really do this as a leader in your own business. I just didn't see myself as a person who was a business owner.
Speaker 1:I saw a leader in myself, I saw a person who could transition knowledge, skills and abilities into a full job, like I could do that. I just thought you know, can I carry the weight of owning a business? And that I didn't think through a lot.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, I got it. I got it Because here's the thing too, I don't think I mean not unless you have an MBA and I don't know if you did before, but like, even if you have an MBA, because I had an MBA before, but I don't think you truly understand what it means to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:No, not at all. Yeah, and I did. I mean, our organization paid for us to go to school, so I took full advantage of it, right. So I had my MBA, but it was almost theoretical, right Everything. That's what.
Speaker 2:I say all the time.
Speaker 1:I was like I know what a profit and loss sheet is Now, did I know what to do with it? No, I know how to look at it, right, right. So I was like I know what to do with it? No, I know how to look at it, right. So I was like, hmm, I know what a business plan looks like Right Now. While I failed accounting the first time, I passed it the second time in my master's. I did. So I understood basic accounting Right, but nothing prepares you for understanding and getting that business acumen for being a business owner.
Speaker 1:I knew I had everything to make money. I did. That was no doubt. And I had resources. I had contacts. I knew everyone in the space I worked in healthcare, it, software applications. I knew all the vendors. Every single one of them knew we had a relationship. So every one of my early contracts came from referrals from those same people. So the money was fine. Let me tell you what wasn't Okay. Tell me the negotiation skills. Oh my goodness. I was like oh, you want me to work? Great, pay me what you like. You want me to fly to California for every week for three years? Got it? No problem, I'll cover it, don't worry about it. Wow, it was the insanity of first being afraid to leave an organization of security for 13 years, getting a first referral to fly out to Philadelphia Great, great business. Fly out to Philadelphia Great, great business. And then the realization of they paid you a lot of money. Why you don't have any money.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker 1:Because you're spending so much, so much outgoing but not managing the ingoing and not reinvesting and not looking at your financial management documents, not looking at none.
Speaker 2:Of that crossed my mind, I think also like not knowing how much it actually costs to do business. Because, like we can, we can price out the things that we got to buy. But what about the flight? Or what are all the other things like hotels, rental cars?
Speaker 1:I love it and none of that was negotiated, Not a single part of it was. It was them telling me this is what we're going to pay you, this is what we will pay for for this. This is the limit you have on flights. This is the limit you have on car rental. This is the limit you have on hotels. So in my mind it was all new. I'm like, okay, well, y'all know better.
Speaker 2:So, great.
Speaker 1:I'm like okay, well, y'all know better, so great, I'm going to bring my 100% project management skill to your business. I'm accessible 24 hours a day. If you call me at seven o'clock at night, I've got you, because that is what I was accustomed to, but working for a company who was actually paying me by the hour to do that, that's right. Now I'm working for myself and they're they're not. There's no benefit to them for me other than my skillset, right? So they're only going to pay for what I asked for to be paid. That's right. And I did not know. I needed to ask, wow.
Speaker 2:Did not know it. So when did you realize you had to ask, and how did you ask?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. So uh and I always tell this story too Two years in, I had three contracts. So the first one was in Philadelphia. I flew out there for three months, it was a community health hospital. The second one was in oh gosh New York. I think this has been so long, but three of them right.
Speaker 1:So the whole time I'm flying out there every week I have to be at all of these locations new contracts signing. Great, I'm there, I've got you. This contract will end here. I'm going to move then on to the next one. So in this going into year two, making a lot of money, here's what we didn't know. I still had to help my husband support the house. I still had to pay for flights, airfare and rental cars, food, all of those things and whatever it was that I was doing when I was on site there. So money was going out, money was going to the house. There was no budget. I was like, oh, I got this check, I'll help pay this bill for us, I'll help pay this. So it got to the point where this is the big thing that I recognized. The first two years we were so far in the red. It was burgundy. We were like what is happening? Why are you? You're making money, but we're not seeing it because you'll get you probably getting big checks.
Speaker 1:I get a big check, but to pay back for the flights, but to pay back the credit cards that I used to book flights, right? So what I realized is when I learned, net 30, net 15, net 45, oh yeah, and mine were all net 45, oh, but I, but I was flying every week, right, so you understand, like, so, every 45 days, that's a month and a half, that's right.
Speaker 2:You know what's due every 30 days, and then you get like credit card fees on top of that Fees on top of that.
Speaker 1:So you know, I was trying to catch up with the checks. When I did get paid, it was horrible and I said this is insane. So again at that point you're thinking I made the wrong decision. I'm going back to work. This is crazy. I'm not doing this Like I love this money, but it's all going to pay back to catch up and get in front of myself. And again I have an MBA. How am I not smarter than this?
Speaker 2:And you're smart, you know you got the job, you know the job I'm doing great.
Speaker 1:So I was like I'm going back to work, I'm not, this is not happening. So when it came time to re-sign the contract for the third contract I had, it was the third group second year into the contract. They want to re-sign me. They to the contract. Okay, they want to re-sign me. They want me to come back out. And I reached out to a business coach. She was a friend of mine, but I call her my business coach now. She had been doing this for a number of years, very successful. So I called her and I said this just is not working.
Speaker 2:What are you doing?
Speaker 1:What are you doing? How do I get ahead of this? She was like, well, you're doing it all wrong. So I outlined to her you know, I book my flights every week and then I book my hotels, I book my rent and I prepay for all of those things, right? She said, oh, you're doing that all wrong. She said what are they covering? I said well, was my. What now, what you call that contract negotiation? They wrote it. I signed it. What do you mean? Wow? She said okay, so write that down. She's like write that down negotiations. She said I'll come back to that. She said when you were doing your um, looking at your contracts, are you getting paid in advance for them One, you booking your flights? And I said no, like they say that they'll pay me, they'll reimburse me for it. She said every 45 days. I was like she said you're doing it wrong, you're doing it all wrong. So we went through the whole process and she walked me through. Before I re-signed for that second contract. She said change it to net 15.
Speaker 1:And that's just for your pay. She said they're going to negotiate net 30, but ask for net 15. I was like, well, why not just say net 30? She said, and that's how you got 45,. Ma'am, do what I tell you to do. I said, okay, got it. She said. And then request and require weekly reimbursement for your travel if they do not have a travel agency that you can work through. And I said, so, companies have travel agencies, I can do that. I was like, oh, got it, got it. So, and, believe it or not, there were two organizations that I work with that they actually had. They worked with Concord Travel Agency. Did not think to ask that Never. Would have probably asked that had I not gotten that feedback from her. So that was a part of now my new negotiation skill.
Speaker 1:Then, asking for net 30, pushing them to net net, asking for net 15, pushing them to net 30. Asking for net 15, pushing them to net 30, and then really just requesting everything that I have to pay out up front, getting reimbursed immediately. Seven days is the cutoff, she said. So the first time I had to ask for that too, victoria, I was like, so I'm going to buy this ticket. Do you guys think you could pay me in seven days for that ticket. They were like are you asking or is it a suggestion? I was like you're right, let me say I'm going to require you to pay me in seven days for this ticket that I purchased. If you want me to purchase a month's worth of tickets, I will purchase those tickets, but you need to pay me in seven days for the whole month that I'm going to be traveling. They're like okay, everyone said yes, did not get a no in the crowd at all, and I did not know any of that.
Speaker 1:All I knew is I was leaving an organization to go do a job that I thought was going to fulfill me by being my own boss and calling my own shots. Who knew about business? Right?
Speaker 2:Right, right, wow, that is so powerful. I feel like the lesson in there is like, yes, we are not working, we're working for ourselves, but it's almost like we're still working for those organizations if we don't flip that switch. Yes, yes, you know. And one thing for me was that I had to recognize that I have the power to make those types of decisions Because I okay. So I'll give you an example when I wanted to do the opening for this place on March 8th 2025. And I was doing everything, like all the things, and I still had to travel in between. And then I was. So my friends were like, what do you need help? I was like, yeah, I do need help.
Speaker 2:And they were like why you need help. I was like, yeah, I do need help by myself. And they were like why can't you move it? And I was like why can't I move it? It's like it's your thing, it is yours, like I guess, yes, I can move it. And so I moved it to 30th. That gave me enough, but that that light bulb went off my head. That, just so that I can actually move it, you own it right so I think there's also a mindset shift. That has to happen too.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I teach that now, now that I have a better understanding of it isn't just about your knowledge, your skills and abilities that help your business grow. It's about the way you change your mindset and how you're going to be a business owner.
Speaker 1:I took the hard road to get there Two years, it shouldn't have been that long. You know, I think I kept thinking I could turn this around. I just need to work harder. I need to do this. It never dawned on me. I needed to understand how to run a business and I needed to understand how to shift my mind from. I'm working in the business, yes, but I need to run this business. That's right. So that mindset shift, it is, oh my God, required, and if you don't, you will be in the burgundy, it is just no doubt. And you'll never be able to really make true decisions as a business owner if you don't change the way you think about how you are as a business owner.
Speaker 1:I don't want to just work in this business forever. I will always be a project manager, it's just in me. But I also am a business owner and that has to be first, because in order for me to continue to be a project manager, the business needs to strive, and I did not know any of that and I really like to help people get to a space where they do know that. I hear people say all the time Indy, I just don't. I don't understand your business, like, do you do leadership and education or you do this? My business is project management, but me, as a business owner, I believe in. You have to support, so I need to educate. So as a part of philanthropy work, for me, it's about getting out there and teaching our business owners. The road I traveled is not a road you have to. If you want, I can help you, yes. So that is where I feel like it's when it comes to my business. Pemphase does amazing.
Speaker 1:I mean we went. Once I got past the burgundy, we moved into green and my goal was to at the five year mark. We were going to be here Because you know the rule is, at five years people don't make it, that's right.
Speaker 1:We were going to be here. I didn't go through the process of thinking about the business name. So I even when I thought about all of the things that needed to change about how I think about this business. It started with the name of the business. Then it started with structuring how I needed to strategize for the business while also still working in the business. So the name of my actual corporate company is Brown Design and Workflow Creations.
Speaker 1:It is super long, right? That's right, because again I had to jump out there, put a business together and get it going. I didn't put any thought into that, I'm just being honest.
Speaker 2:There's so many things to think of, and you thought about as much as you could.
Speaker 1:My last name is Brown. I do a lot of workflow designs and we help create projects to work with you. Right, yeah, it makes sense. So all of that makes sense, absolutely. It's 87 characters long, but it makes sense.
Speaker 2:It explains what we do it explains what we do.
Speaker 1:So I didn't. I just thought, just put a name out there, get it started, because that was a part of my business. Coaching is get this together. What are you going to do day to day? What does it look like? And a lot of companies, when they're in the two-year mark, they think, oh, I'm not like. Operations is not a thing. For me, operations is always a thing, your operations right. So PM phase was born out of me rebranding my and my mind shift change. So it was all right. We need to pause the project management and me being the staff, right, and I need to learn to be a CEO oh my god, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I like I will tell you I am in my CEO era right now.
Speaker 1:I tell myself.
Speaker 2:Every morning I am done. I mean like because I am the business, I'm the one doing the photography doing all the things I'm like I need to take myself out of the you know and run the business. Oh, my goodness, so I know you are part of, or you did, 10K SB at Goldman Sachs.
Speaker 1:I'm in that program right now.
Speaker 2:It's really so mind-changing, mind-blowing, blowing, it's like amazing and just teaching us how to again shift our mindset. But anyway, uh, keep going.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I just know that was good though because, um, as as I was going through that back then, that was 2013, 2014, 2015, right. So I'm trying to figure out how to shift things and PM Phase was born. I wanted a name and a logo and a thing that what I felt like is. I wanted to make sure that it was something I felt good about. Like the first time I just randomly thought of a name. This time I put some thought into it. I love project management. So PM Phase PM is project management Phase are the stages you go through in a project. Pmp are the first three letters of PM phase. It's the certification you get. When I tell you, I went through the whole thought process, I was like we're going to rebrand this, we're going to create a logo. I love yellow, I love. I wanted something that could be seen.
Speaker 1:I don't care where you put it, the sun is the brightest thing and it shines the light on everything and it makes you feel good when it's out. I said this is a feeling I want people to see when they see my logo so we rebranded, did a DBA for PM Phase and we just started pushing then. And then, when we hit the five-year mark, we were in the green green, green, green, green green.
Speaker 2:Yes, hallelujah.
Speaker 1:So you know, at that point it was like okay, so you understand, my business coach was there, I got a mentor because the mind shift requires some personal assessment, right? So how do I make decisions? How do I show up as a leader? I'm a CEO now. How do I make sure I show up in the space that says she's about her business?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:That took a mentor for me. I needed someone to help build the confidence. I needed someone to help me be okay with not suggesting but requesting, that's right. I needed someone to be able to do that. So I had a great mentor who said feel confident in the fact that you know. You know what you're doing. I said yes for skills. I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to business. She said you do, look what you've done so far. You turned burgundy from burgundy to red to green. She was like only a real CEO boss can do that. I was like you're right, you're right, I got that. We don't give ourselves enough credit. We don't. I was like you're right, you're right, I got that. We don't give ourselves enough credit. We don't. We really do not. And I think because everyone sees you and they're like how do you know? You know what you're doing. And when you're questioning it, then, of course, when you hear someone else questioning, it's a trigger. Now it's like well, how do I know You're right? Is there something I should learn?
Speaker 1:Right Versus to learn versus saying, because I do know that's right. I've been through it.
Speaker 2:Right, I think for me also it's kind of annoying because for a while I didn't even think that it's possible, because I'm so focused on the doing part that I'm not even thinking about what that looked like whether I know or not At all.
Speaker 1:And I think you don't think about it because you are in it and that's when you have to step out, like I literally had to split the time to say you know if I'm taking on because I still had to keep the business going, so I'm still working projects, but it became setting boundaries at that point. So now I have to say, when work is over, work is over. But what does the business need now? I need to shift into that and that was so challenging. At that point then I knew I needed an assistant. This is when things start. You know, you get clarity on it. And when I tell you it is hard being a business owner, I tell people to this day. I mean I still might sit upstairs in my room and cry a little bit like what is happening here.
Speaker 2:Well, that gives me hope.
Speaker 1:It is a challenge because you know then things are changing. That's when it's time for you to take a step back. Take a moment, think clear the noise, get the clutter, stop the clutter so you can have some clarity for the next thing you need to do. I know that something has to shift. When I start to feel stressed about what we're doing and I know when the tears are coming oh, something big is about to happen, because you're feeling the change and you're trying to figure out the struggle through it. So now it's more figure out the strategy through it. So I go through and I'm like okay, I'm feeling like I feel a shift happening. What's our strategy to accommodate?
Speaker 1:So one of the things when I first started, after we hit the five-year mark, we're into the green. Now we're like okay, we're getting great referrals. I need to figure out how to give back, because now I'm feeling a little like you've been through some storms. So I reached out, searched for organizations to participate in. I found Pass the Torch, all the organizations except Sea Leaders I just recently found, but all the organizations I wanted to be a part of. And then we started sponsoring because I'm a firm believer in it. It's like tithing right. When you get blessed, you've got to give something back, and that was my way of doing that. I have to say that.
Speaker 2:That was one thing that I also noticed when I was searching. It's like she's giving everything. How can I get some of that? No, seriously, a lot of times when an organization is doing an event or something, they list out the names of the sponsors. I always see PM face and with the gold I meanm pm face and I'm like. And when the with the gold.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean not gold, but like sunshine, and I was like look, who is it?
Speaker 2:that's how I first of all say who is this woman? I know who is this person but, like I totally can attest to your your heart of generous, generosity and giving back.
Speaker 1:It is important and it was important. It's still important, but as I felt like I was defining my version of success and going through the struggles and understanding, now, success for me means that I can, at the end of the day, say I've done everything that I can do to help myself succeed and to help someone else. That's what made, that was what was fulfilling to me. Else, that's what made that was what was fulfilling to me, and I did it because I wanted to do it, not because someone else said I needed to or it was required. As a part of my job, I get to pick and choose, and so giving being a sponsor, it was really. It really made me feel good. It was great to get the visibility, but it was so awesome to see that the money I would give to help someone was helping a whole group of people. So I just thought, you know, after a while, though, it becomes a thing where everybody's like, hey, we can use some support, I'm like, but that doesn't really align with our mission. We're kind of like business owner people. So I did again setting boundaries. I had to come up with the mission statement for how we do sponsorships, and that's just for PM Faze.
Speaker 1:You know I firmly believe, as a for-profit, nonprofits are important. So we try to support nonprofits. And in the space of how is that nonprofit? Supporting business owners? Because again, as a business owner, as a woman, the struggle was hard. How are we helping to prevent the struggle? It's going to be hard, but can we reduce it just a little bit? You know, it doesn't have to be as stressful. Maybe just the red, not the burgundy. That's where I would hope that people would go, with my support. You're going to find the red when you're a business owner. But I feel like if I had had the knowledge, the business knowledge, I wouldn't have seen the burgundy.
Speaker 2:I would have seen just the red.
Speaker 1:Like everybody goes through a period of, okay, we're getting low, let's structure back. But when you go so far like I got to go back to work, that's when someone should have stepped in and said let me help you. This is how you do this better.
Speaker 2:And so this is the passion that you bring forth in your educating other business owners too.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that's it sparks it all from sponsoring PM FaZe as a business doing its part, me as a CEO doing my part. It's about being able to help and you know, I see so many of our business owners popping up and they have amazing, amazing products, amazing services, and then it's the lack of business acumen. I was like I've seen that I've been there, I can help you, and wanting to help those people that want to help themselves.
Speaker 1:So, that's where the learning and the education and now understanding a lot of who you are as a leader, as a CEO. We are the boss, we are in charge and I just feel like how can we make sure that we help other people get to that place? You can run a business, but if you can't lead in the business, it's still not going to be successful. So yeah, and I did lead in the business. It's still not going to be successful. So yeah, and I did go through the 10K program when I was 10K was about scaling, so scale your business growth right.
Speaker 1:I knew nothing about HR. I've never hired a person in my entire existence.
Speaker 1:I helped support HR when, I worked in corporate, but I didn't go through that process. So when I was ready to think about hiring my first assistant, I hired an HR company to write all of my documents. I also in that process of rebranding, refocusing mindset. I am not a marketing person, I'm not a finance person. I have an MBA, but it was a learned business, not finance stuff, that's right. I hired a CPA firm to manage my finances, so I have all of the external resources because those are not my jobs, right, I can't do that Right. And so when 10K came along, I was like okay, so this is going to show me how to move out of that space of India. You're working in the business. You need to get other people to work in the business. Your business is growing, and we didn't really have anything like that here in the city. Everything was about new businesses yeah, you know, and startups and those businesses that need funding. Those were like nope, nope and nope.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:How do I grow? That's what I want to know. Yes, and 10K came along perfectly, isn't it the best program, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, it's a lot of time, a lot of work.
Speaker 1:A lot of work, the best program.
Speaker 2:So good, oh, my God, so good. I'm just so thankful that I got the opportunity to be in it. But yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, and it's a 12-week program right, it is yes, so I had never done a cohort ever before. This is my first one too.
Speaker 2:Yes, like, oh my God, every day of the week there's something to do. It's like an MBA on steroids On steroids.
Speaker 1:I said the same thing and I was just like let me block out my calendar for all this time because there were so many requirements to make sure you were present. But I loved it. It was the first cohort I had ever done. I do a lot of networking. I see and hear about a lot of cohorts. I just didn't feel like they were a fit for where we were and where the business was and where I was in my journey, for making sure I'm a great business owner and I just thought we just need something like that here. So it's good that that came along. And I found that at a networking event that I went to that it was in Detroit and they have a cohort in Detroit in person in Michigan, I don't think it's directly in Detroit but it's in Michigan.
Speaker 1:And I was like, what's 10K? This is amazing. Let me call these people Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they started the first Indiana course so you were able to I went through the national one, okay, I see that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So they did not have one local here in India, or I would have done that, but the national one was great. I met people from all over the country. National One was great. I met people from all over the country, all business owners in all spaces, all industries, and I really love that they were not startup businesses so we could bounce ideas off of each other that were not at a level of I just got here. That's right.
Speaker 2:Right, so I love that.
Speaker 1:I do love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. I really like that. Yeah, pm phase. You're doing a lot of other things in the community to help empower women and you know just essentially the community. What is next for?
Speaker 1:you, oh man. So I think for PM phase we again. You know I said I think I've been sitting in this space of what are we doing. The landscape today is changing. You know, we are looking at our business index in terms of where all the revenue comes from, and we generate revenue from the health care, it software space. So we have organizations who implement ERPs, enterprise resource planning, learning management systems, and so a lot of our funding, a lot of our revenue was generated from that. And then we moved into training and development, just workforce development, and so we're looking at the landscape today for organizations who get funding to pay for services, like ours. So we had a couple of contracts that were impacted by the funding from the treasury that was being held and we're like okay, you know what that means, it's time to shift. If we can feel an impact from payments like, then we need to figure out how do we avoid this in the future. What is our change here? So now it's kind of focusing on we receive a lot of our business from referrals.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I came out of the gate with referrals and it's been that way since Now I'm realizing PM Faze needs to focus on proactively. And it's been that way since Now I'm realizing P and Faze needs to focus on proactively getting business and that's sales. Never done sales in my entire life.
Speaker 1:And everyone's like oh, you're a CEO, you're a salesperson. I was like I am not Remember. I said I have an accountant, I have an attorney, I have a marketing person. I have a marketing person. I don't do sales. So I understand, as a business owner and a leader, where my limitations are, that's so powerful. I'm not going to try to do sales for something that I think is as critical as generating revenue for my business when that's not my I promote. Now, promotion is a part of sales. I can promote my business.
Speaker 1:So now we're just kind of PM Phase is structuring its position to focus on sales. We really need to figure out like, how do we put together a sales team? And we've never done that. But we also didn't do HR and we got through that. Great. We love our staff. We work with a lot of 1099 consultants. We have three full-time staff on deck with us. So going through that you know I was like that was a challenge, but we made it through. So now we're kind of focusing on sales while still working through the business. But really that was a strategy that needed to happen because of today's landscape. We need to step outside the box and say, all right, who do we start looking for business from?
Speaker 2:Right, so yeah, so I love. I guess I'm just realizing something as I'm speaking to you right now, like I mean we talked about you becoming a CEO and being the CEO, but like I see you, like I'm talking to you like a CEO, like you know what I mean, like I just see that embodiment of that right now and I'm so thankful that you're in my life, because there's so much that I can learn from you, because I'm walking this journey too. But I know there's a lot of people out there too that are like, oh, they're still studying now, but I love the fact that you spend a lot of time and resources in educating people. So I'm sure there's somebody out there thinking how can I get some of that education?
Speaker 1:How can I be a part of that? Someone was asking me that just a few months ago and I said you know I want to share it. I do. I think the challenge is people. I don't know if they see me as a person who can educate them where they think they are, when really my goal is to educate everyone. I don't care where you are. If where you are in your stage requires you to start looking at how you lead, start looking at how you're running your business, start looking at do I have a strategy? Every year I do a strategic plan for the business. It is required. How do we know what we're going to do next year? That was a CEO mindset shift for me. I'm just in the beginning. It was like let's make it to next year.
Speaker 1:Now it's like we're going to next year. What are we going to do to do better than the last year? What are we going to do better in two years than we did two years ago? That's right. So I think, when it comes to helping the business owners, it isn't about oh, India's a CEO and I don't know that I am ready to get what she's giving.
Speaker 1:You're ready if you've said to yourself I think I want to understand, and then you fill in the blanks. That is where a person like me, not only as a mentor, could help you but as a business owner. So I put together this leadership CEO mind shift course and it's so priceless. I did a workshop for WeBank women of color and it was an hour and a half workshop where we talked about the five strategies to becoming a leader, and it's really finding your position, knowing what your boundaries are as a leader and the things you need to improve on. So, as a leader, I know that I have learned over the years to be very authoritative, because I've realized that being passive can also be mistaken. For I'm suggesting that's right.
Speaker 1:That is not the type of leader that I am with anyone across the board, so it is helping you get those skill sets. So, if there's a business owner that's asking the question to themselves, I want to understand whether it's finance decision-making, how I show up as a leader, what my leadership skills are, what I need to do to get to the next level, to try to scale. Then come to the course. Okay, how can we get there? Okay, so it's all on social media. So go to PM Phase's social media, whether it's Instagram, facebook or LinkedIn. Okay, you can also email me at info at pmphasecom. Okay, and then there's links on all of those social media pages. Okay, you can also email me at info at pmphasecom. Okay, and then there's links on all of those social media pages. Is it free? It is not quite on the website. It is not free, oh, okay, I was going to say that.
Speaker 1:And the reason that I said that it's not free a lot of the information that we try to share when it's free, these are some great nuggets. Right, I want to make sure that people understand and they are committed. Right, that's true when you give out the type of information that's going to be shared. Like, I didn't get here easily, so I want to give I give free information. I don't share anything with anyone, but there are certain things that belong to certain people and those are the people that, when you're serious about making this CEO shift, those are the ones I want you to come and I want you to invest in yourself. That's right, because I can give you five pieces of advice right now, and that's great. But what I want to give you more of is, within that advice, let me give you the steps on how to get there. That's right. Let me give you what you need to make sure you're getting to the next level. So, yes, it's a minimal investment. I think you know we, we, we attached a nice little small investment dollar.
Speaker 2:The thing also is that, you know, if we are not willing to invest in ourselves, you know, then we're not ready for the change, for the change that we're looking for At all. Yeah, so on your social media and your website, right? Yes?
Speaker 1:Yes, wwwpmphasecom, it's easy. And you. If you go to PM Phase's social media, you'll see it and there's a link on there that you can click to sign up and register, and it's on Eventbrite also, so you can get to it from there.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put all the links in the description. Yeah, absolutely, because I want to get my hands on that too. Seriously, because I feel like you are doing what I want to do. You're already there, right? So I'm learning a lot through 10K, but you also are a tangible example, so I need to tap into what you're doing. I don't want to go into the burgundy. Yes, definitely, I want everyone to avoid the burgundy.
Speaker 1:So I just want to add to the 10K course. When I came out of it, I think one of the biggest things that I learned is it really did help fill in the gap for when you have to make a transition right if you don't have a plan for it. So a lot of the things you probably, as you're going through the course, you're probably like oh, I knew this, but I didn't know that, or I knew this, I just didn't know how to do that. So when you're growing, it is. I took that course because I needed to understand what I want to get ahead of the growth. I don't want to be in the growth when it's happening, yes, and that helps you get ahead of it.
Speaker 1:It's like giving you a roadmap so that you can plan for it.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it's like an intentional thing as opposed to like trying to survive.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think that's where the miss is, and I know. For me, the next stage of where we're going is the growth. We've had tremendous growth and I want to always stay ahead of it. So we are looking to expand out into our lines of service. We're trying to get into more of the federal space PM phases. We do a lot of responses to proposals. That's again a part of our proactively getting business. So then again, I think that class just taught me how to be five steps ahead, cause it's a five-year growth plan right.
Speaker 2:So how to?
Speaker 1:be five steps ahead of staying ahead of the growth and not in the growth, struggling through the strategy.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, I just I oh my God, you could I couldn't have said it any better Like just being able to put together a roadmap and know that this is so, that way, when adversity comes or struggles, like you know that you're on a path, you know what you're doing, you can respond, even because we also do like risk management too.
Speaker 1:Like all of that is obvious.
Speaker 2:It's an incredible program, but we are not selling good massage. No, we're not.
Speaker 1:We're not. We're just saying all the things we've learned and how we apply them. But yes, india's next thing as a part of a business owner is doing is helping business owners do their CEO mind shift change. So I'm going to be offering some courses on it. This course is May the 28th OK, that will be the next one coming and then, based on that, we're going to try to offer it again in June. I think it's important. Again, I know there's a lot of cohorts going on, but then there's that thing that happens after the cohort. Like I want to be the thing that happens after the cohort. Come talk to me once you've gone through the class and let's see where your mind is and where we can help you shift to. For PM phase, we're just all about supporting community. We will always be there to support the community and you know again, business is going well. We are trying to figure out staffing, so you know just growth is happening all the time. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being an incredible leader Like you really are an incredible leader. I look up to you. I am so grateful that you are giving, so giving of yourself. You know like, because some people they get keep you know, but you're like, look, I got you, you just so, thank you so much Thank you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, and it's people like you that make me feel like my definition of success is so validated, because I see you being successful and I just want to be in the space you're in, because that's energy, oh my gosh. Listen, I'm so proud of you, and while you said you stalked me, I was stalking you too. I remember when we met, I said I see you, I follow you, and I was like I need to meet her, and then there was someone that was supposed to do a connection and we found each other.
Speaker 1:Look how God works.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, this has been so great Thank you so much for being so generous for giving of yourself and your resources. Definitely check out the resource. I'm going to put all the links in the description. You already know how that goes. It sounds like it's a monthly. It's going to be. We're going to gauge all the links in the description you already know how that goes.
Speaker 1:It sounds like it's a monthly it's going to be. We're going to gauge the success from the one that's coming up, but I would love for it to be a monthly session workshop for entrepreneurs that are interested.
Speaker 2:I love that, and if you take anything out of this, it's like, yes, there is having the skills to run your business, having the skills to start the business, but there's a mind shift and thought processes, strategies that's required to become a CEO, and that's something I don't see a lot of people talk about. But we got India Brown giving us, you know, like this, powerful tools and strategy at a minimal investment, which we really need to make in order to get to that growth that we're looking for. So I urge you to make that investment in yourself because, look, you don't want to be going in the red and the burgundy when you can avoid it and we have people that can actually help us. So, if you're local, or maybe I mean because it's online, right, it's local so we're going to have it at my office.
Speaker 1:I'm at 96 Michigan Overhead's low for me, so I have an office space. We're going to use the office space. It is limited seating 10 people. So first 10 people sign up because, again, it's core information and I want the right people to receive it. So it's limited seating. Every month it will not be offered to 30, 40 people. I want the best 10 people to come in and say this is I'm ready to invest in myself, I'm ready to change my mind.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Can I ask you a question real quickly? Like I know, you're big on mentorship and in my mind I feel like this could even turn into a mentorship thing Because, like, if I keep registering every month someone's like I'm like you know, it's like if I keep registering every month someone's like I'm, like you know, connected, you know, to the source.
Speaker 1:Yes, at each session you get an hour consultation with me Wow. So I will help you understand if I'm the right mentor for you or if you're looking for a business coach or a mentor. That is in the space that you're in. So I'll give you all of those nuggets in that free hour consultation that comes with the course.
Speaker 2:Look, do we need to say more? I mean, jump on this offer. It sounds like it's going to be every month, so if you miss this month, it's coming up on May 28th. Make sure you look up. It's going to be on social media. Go on PMFace and look up that information, or email info at pmfacecom. That is super easy. You can, you know, like just check it out and invest in yourself. But do you have anything else to add before we finish?
Speaker 1:Listen, I always like to at least give three pieces of advice to our business owners, and I love how you said you want to stay out of the burgundy. The first one is make sure you understand what you need as a business owner Self-assessment, right. Take that, run with it. Don't be afraid to question and ask yourself questions about how you're running your business. Two find a mentor. I mean, get someone in your space to champion for you. That is the biggest piece to help build self-confidence. So get a mentor.
Speaker 1:If you don't do anything else, talk to someone. And then three sometimes when we talk about we need money, we need finance, we need to support ourselves financially. That is not always the case, so don't be blinded at the fact that you think money fixes all. It does not. You know what does Having your own self-assessment about your own knowledge, skills and ability in your business acumen. So don't let getting funding be the core reason why starting a business is the thing that you need to do. To get that started, you do not have to have funding to do it. I mean, you can, it's useful, but it shouldn't be the primary thing that you focus on. Right, getting business knowledge should be yes, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:No, no, that's powerful. I think that's something I'm learning too. Everything, even though we think it's the money, I just need the money. No, it's not always like this. It is not so much more. It is not the resources the you know like, yeah, that we don't Access to knowledge yeah, the access. Yeah, yeah, that's so powerful.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. So that's it. Thank you so much for having me. I love you so much, me too.
Speaker 2:I love you so much. Well, take care.
